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Spouting Thomas's avatar

I've wanted to comment for a while on this series because I think it's thoughtful, though I'll acknowledge my ideas aren't fully formed on everything you present, while I agree on some and disagree on others. I'm not an expert of any sort on this matter, but I'd still like to present some thoughts:

1. A distinction probably needs to be drawn between observing the observable vs. imitating the language and assumptions of a highly politicized anti-Christian movement. Yes, some arguments you address appear to reject the obvious reality of homosexual desire. But I'm still wary of adopting worldly language that carries certain poisonous assumptions.

The word "heterosexual" is, I think, more politicized than the word "homosexual" for this reason. The mere usage of the word "heterosexual" suggests a value judgment, equating it with homosexuality rather than identifying the ordinary state and the disordered state. If we look at a psychological disorder, let's suppose a relatively value-neutral one, like autism or OCD, we haven't adopted words to describe people who lack these disorders. Likewise, if we have a sexual orientation, should we also say that we have an orientation vis-a-vis OCD? I'm reluctant to adopt this entire way of thinking.

2. I agree that there are Biblical categories here, and then there are sociological/psychological categories, which are still relevant if we want to understand the world. The popular grouping of various sorts of homosexual desire has the potential to erase the diverse psychological reality. This is at least partly motivated by activist political and social concerns (i.e. banding together in a larger LGBT+ alliance and community). Though as you point out, Scripture also groups together multiple sorts of homosexual activity, so I'm torn as to how relevant this is to theology. But I think it's still important to acknowledge and to overcome certain misunderstandings and errors.

3. I want to highlight the peculiarities of obligate male homosexuality in particular, because I think it's too often conflated with all other sorts of homosexuality. To a greater degree than the others, it seems to have deep biological causes. Properly speaking, I think it meets the medical definition of a "syndrome", as it's highly correlated with not only obvious characteristics like feminine behavioral tendencies from an early age, but also seemingly unrelated characteristics like left-handedness and smaller stature, probably also a tendency towards a lisp (though this can often be corrected with speech therapy).

Another curious feature of this syndrome is that the majority of such men prefer to be "bottoms". This is seldom spoken of in the wider world, and I suppose I took for granted most of my life that the "top" was the preferred role -- that their homosexual desire was merely a matter of misplaced "targeting". But I think the preference for "bottoming", and also for more masculine men, suggests a very deep change in the brain's sexual wiring compared to most other sorts of unusual sexual behavior.

Further, it's an error to take the experience of obligate male homosexuality -- the most clearly and deeply biologically rooted sort of homosexual behavior and desire -- and apply it to all the others, regarding "sexual orientation" as unchangeable and condemning the very idea of conversion therapy.

For example, it appears to be far more common (if not quite universally true) that lesbianism is rooted not in some syndromic and inborn disorder in brain wiring, but in a trauma-induced aversion to men. Jackie Hill Perry, who wrote, "Gay Girl, Good God", seems to fit this category, and I think both sides misuse testimonies like hers. It's an error to imply EITHER that obligate male homosexuality can be overcome in the same manner as trauma-induced lesbianism, OR that trauma-induced lesbianism is nearly as difficult to overcome as obligate male homosexuality. But most arguments on both sides have a tendency to take this form.

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BismarckianMan's avatar

Greetings.

I've been personally looking into various writings by those on Side-B, both out of personal interest and for private projects I am working on. Your post is recent and you have replied to basically every comment, so I figured I'd reach out as well.

Jed prompted a query about the phrase "pedophile Christian." I bring this up for two reasons. One is that you did not answer his question. Second is that I am one of those Christians who experiences an attraction to children, specifically little girls, and would like to clear up misconceptions and make a query of my own.

Firstly is that, although it is used in that manner colloquially and by exploitative news outlets, "pedophile" in the proper medical sense refers to someone with a sexual preference for children. Much in the same way "homosexual" has been used to refer to those who act sexually with the same sex, but properly used refers only to the disposition to such things.

Secondly is that the willingness of people like me to publicly admit to having such attractions is not relevant to anything. You know the consequences of admitting to something like that. I'm hardly being a coward using a pseudonym here, and neither is anyone else with these attractions.

Thirdly, the way you spoke about this to Jed is demeaning. You put "orientation" in scare quotes when describing pedophilia, implicitly gatekeeping the term to exclude those like me. Then you say, "On the other hand, a great many normal, lovely people have unchosen same-sex desires." Implying me and those like me are necessarily neither normal or lovely, which is incredibly unfair. Last time I checked, I didn't choose pedophilic desires any more than those with same-sex desires chose their proclivities.

As to my own query...

Would it, by your own standards, consider it appropriate for me to refer to myself as a "girl-lover Christian?" And not a "pedophile Christian;" I balk at being referred to as "a pedophile" the same as a gay Christian would chafe at being called "a homosexual." And "pedophile" would not accurately specify the sex of those I'm attracted to. Beyond that, my own preferences and proclivities are irrelevant, as I'm asking you to apply your proposed principles to my situation.

For some clarification, phrases like "girl-lover," "boy-lover," and "child-lover" are what people with pedophilia often use to refer to themselves, much like how those with adult same-sex desires often call themselves lesbian, gay, or bisexual. These in my experience are more popular outside of an activist context than "minor-attracted," let alone "pedophile."

So, I reiterate, would it appropriate for me to refer to myself as a "girl-lover Christian" by the standards you and those in Side-B propose for "gay Christians?"

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